Dear Mr. Panda,

The present provider of Cable Belt systems is Metso. Metso sold two systems, in 2006 to Anglo Coal Australia, consisting of conveyors with numerous horizontal curves. These systems do have the same problems with cables dislodging in horizontal curves. They cannot finalize full production due to the cable problems, unacceptable spillage and inferior belt cleaning. Unfortunately, I do not believe the client in Australia was appraised of your installation and your difficulties when they placed the order with Metso.

Worsley Aluminum's 50 km Cable Belt overland, installed in ~1985, suffers from excessive spillage along the overland route. As I understand, they have not found a cure to the excessive spillage and frequent sheave wear. There are no horizontal curves on either of the 20 or 30 km flights.

Do you wish contact information on the Anglo Australian Cable Belt System?

I visited Utkal about one year ago, in Orissa. The deputy general manager, stated he worked for Nalco, prior to undertaking his post in Utkal. He claimed the Nalco Cable Belt was a highly reliable and trouble free system. For this reason, and his general knowledge of the Nalco operation, Utkal would favor the Cable Belt System for their 22 km overland. He stated, conventional systems could not compare to the Cable Belt for its terrain superior routing ( sharp horizontal curves, cut, fill and structural efficiency), its reliability, maintainability, and superior yearly operating costs.

This leads to a question: in your opinion, would a present day Cable Belt, be the best solution for your Nalco operation today, or do you believe there may be competitive conventional conveyor solutions which could offer equal or better overall service?

Line Creek in Canada has a 8km Cable Belt downhill conveyor with many horizontal curves. This system also had difficulty with cable wear, sheave wear and spillage. A new type of cable construction was offered to the owner, by Metso, as a lawsuit was filed against the prior owners of Cable Belt for unacceptable performance. I do not know the present performance. This could offer benefit, if they have conquered the control problems in the curves. Let me know if you wish contact assistance at Line Creek. ■

I for one am glad to see you back. ■

Hi Manoranjan,

We had an application for a decline conveyor at 17 deg to bring up 600 tph run-of-mine ore from 500 m underground to feed a Mill stockpile.

We obtained quotes for a cable belt application, and a steel core belt. The capital order-of-cost of the two systems was very similar. It was difficult to obtain past performance information for cable belt use in a rough mining environment. We therefore felt that a conventional steel belt would be more appropriate, requiring more familiar maintenance procedures. Some said that would be too conservative an approach, even in an underground mining environment.

I obtained some opinions on this forum, but very little real hard facts on equivalent operating experience.

The cable belt is probably a sound decision for longer distances of say 2 km above ground.

Regards - John.Rz

Conveyor Calculation http://www.cospire.com/browse.aspx?id=4317 ■

Dear John.RZ,

Have you read the article by Ian Dixon, Selby's Conveyor Maintenance Manager? He published an extensive operating and maintenance article comparing Cable Belt and the mine’s conventional trough conveyors. They operated nearly side by side at the Selby mine. These are two drift mines that transported about 2500 t/h from under the North Sea.

Cable Belt was about 10 km long and the normal trough belt was 12.2km long. The article categorized the operating expenses of each for a typical year period. He was very polite in not personalizing the result. The results were quite profound.

I was asked by the National Coal Board to evaluate the conventional troughed conveyor for a troubling shock wave stress problem. I was able to view each conveyor and discuss their performance differences. Mr. Dixon offered the article. I believe it is a must read for anyone who wishes to know an operator’s experience.

The conventional conveyor operated at 8.4 m/s. The Cable Belt would begin to self destruct beyond 6.5 m/s.

Another article was published in Australia on the cost to fix and commission the Cable Belt at Worsley Aluminum, south of Perth. The article noted a contract value of about $44 million and another $22 million to fix it. These $$$ are from memory. Cable Belt thereafter did not visit the property to promote the world's longest Cable Belt system.

Today, the Cable Belt still has a significant problem with bauxite spillage. Since you are near to Worsley (2.5 hours drive south), you could visit and see for yourself.

Many overland conveyors are planned in the near future. Cable Belt does receive a comprehensive review and have won two recent projects. I do believe they need to overcome a most difficult operation at the Anglo Coal Dawson and Lake Lindsey mines.

The Channar 20 km overland offered Cable Belt the opportunity to compete in 1987. After a due diligence study, they were not given further consideration. Not because they could not compete, but because the client would not take the risk. This story gets repeated often. Take Curragh, the cost difference was negligible. We lost the Anglo overlands to Cable Belt. Is Anglo satisfied with their purchase?

There have been a number of legal claims against Cable Belt. Two are:

1. Selby mine (UK) later filed a lawsuit against Cable Belt for poor performance and won a $$ judgment.

2. Line Creek mine, in Canada, filed a lawsuit against Cable Belt for poor performance and won a financial claim. ■

Dear Mr. Panda,

I had assumed you would be familiar with JLV of Western Australia who would be able to offer significant information on problems, tails, techniques and technology on Cable Belt surrogate information:

JLV Industries Pty Ltd

Phone: 08 9330 5066

Fax: (08) 9330 5362

Address: 85 McCoy Street, Myaree 6154, WA

Email: jlv@jlv.com.au

Website: www.jlv.com.au

They did provide replacement parts for the Nalco CB overland. They do have extensive historical data et al on CB systems around the world. My contacts are a little ancient and may be out of date. I do know, as of a few months ago, they were still doing well.

I have not forgot to provide the contacts you requested. ■

Respected Mr. Nordell,

During your visit to our office in 2007,you explained that CDI have developed special cable & other things ( you cannot explained due to shortage of time) to take care of many problems frquentl faced by cable belt user. Can you explain little bit of those? Also for POWER GRIP.

Regards.

A.Banerjee ■

Dear Mr. Panda,

My associate, Doug Lindley, was involved with the construction and operation of the Line Creek cable belt system in Elkford BC Canada for five years. His hands-on experience as operator gave Line Creek exceptional availability during his time there. Doug dealt with all the problems on site as as stated in your forum.

We would be pleased to assist.

Our contact information is:

j.ziggy.ziegler@gmail.com

John Ziegler,

Box 48, Christina Lake, BC V0H 1E0

Canada ■

I think the notion the Line Creek was a resouding success is a lttle off the mark.

1. The original poly-rims failed due to a design flaw - unbelievable mechanical flaw.

2. The conveyor discharged (spilled) coal at the right and left hand tight curves due to the fast lifting of cable and belt off their track at each horiz. curve causing shifting of the coal over the cable guides.

3. Extreme wear of the polymer coated (stripped outer layer off ) steel ropes that lead to the Zebra cable conceptadopted by Metso.

4. Heavy wear of the redesigned sheaves

5. Lawsuit of Line Creek vs. Cable Belt (Ball Industries) won by Line Creek for all the losses including availability. ■

I hear Metso have finally got throughput on Dawson after years of fiddle. Lake Lindsey appears to work in the normal fashion with more gradual horizontal curve routes.

The big question is what is the $$$$ for maintenance of this newest rendition of a Cable Belt? Past maintenance experience (availability and cost) with Selby and Worsley discourage some large mining companies.

What about their spillage issues?? Nobody talks about significant spillage, but, we see it happening. When the polyrim wears, it's diameter is decreased. THen when a new polyrim is installed the diameter is again increased thereby applying a large pressure on the polyrim which exacerbates wear. How do they overcome this dilema? This does not happen with conventional belt.

What happened to Utkal? Will Cable Belt be allowed to bid? ■

FYI - There is a cable belt conveyor at the HOLCIM Davao cement plant - line 3 kiln line in the Philippines - Mindanoa.

I saw only the head end/drive......they have curves and spillages at the curves

You could try contacting them for their expeirneces.

Cheers

James ■

Any evaluation of the operating cost of a cable belt should take into account rope fatigue. The rope, especially splices have a finite number of bend cycles they can withstand. Each drive, bend or take-up sheave bends the rope so splices need to be replaced. Each splice replacement reduces the rope length meaning more rope must be spliced in.

In the early years there is a honeymoon phase with very few splice replacements. Then they start to require replacement on a case-by-case basis. After time the number of splice replacements rises to a level that means that it is time to replace the entire rope. This could be as short as 6 years or as long as 12 depending on the number of bends experienced by the rope per year.

The advent of the Metso mid-drive as used on the Dawson & LL belts means that that smaller diameter ropes can be used and very long haul distances achieved but each drive adds sheaves and these reduce rope life.

The zebra rope has the plastic core removed at the splice so there is a periodic increase in emitted noise each time a splice comes by. These also increase polywheel and sheave wear. Late in a rope's life when there are more splices, there will be more lineside noise and more wear.

I saw a presentation on the Cable Belts at Dawson and LL and the presenter was quite open about the issues faced and their resolution. Many should never occur again, like the assembly grease being squeezed out of the zebra ropes and piling up at the drive stations and causing sheave slippage. Similarly the over-ambitious horizontal curve radii that required the later addition of extra line stands and poly-wheels.

The issue of spillage on Dawson was addressed too but I was reluctant to accept that it was all a result of poor feed chute design. The images showed that the coal fines had migrated to the edge of the belt due to vertical vibration. The coarse coal had maintained the surcharge angle expected. Photos showed the spilled coal fines piled way up higher than the return belt.

I never heard how the other issues were resolved. One was the issue of tension control on the belt. The ropes stretch under tension and the belt stretches with the rope. At a mid drive the rope goes in at high tension and comes out at much lower tension. I heard there was an issue of the belt forming a buckle at this transition but never heard if it was just a commissioning thing that was solved quickly.

I am keen to know how those systems are running now and what their operational costs are compared to Curragh's.

M ■

Originally Posted by WoltonM

Any evaluation of the operating cost of a cable belt should take into account rope fatigue. The rope, especially splices have a finite number of bend cycles they can withstand. Each drive, bend or take-up sheave bends the rope so splices need to be replaced. Each splice replacement reduces the rope length meaning more rope must be spliced in.

In the early years there is a honeymoon phase with very few splice replacements. Then they start to require replacement on a case-by-case basis. After time the number of splice replacements rises to a level that means that it is time to replace the entire rope. This could be as short as 6 years or as long as 12 depending on the number of bends experienced by the rope per year.

The advent of the Metso mid-drive as used on the Dawson & LL belts means that that smaller diameter ropes can be used and very long haul distances achieved but each drive adds sheaves and these reduce rope life.

The zebra rope has the plastic core removed at the splice so there is a periodic increase in emitted noise each time a splice comes by. These also increase polywheel and sheave wear. Late in a rope's life when there are more splices, there will be more lineside noise and more wear.

I saw a presentation on the Cable Belts at Dawson and LL and the presenter was quite open about the issues faced and their resolution. Many should never occur again, like the assembly grease being squeezed out of the zebra ropes and piling up at the drive stations and causing sheave slippage. Similarly the over-ambitious horizontal curve radii that required the later addition of extra line stands and poly-wheels.

The issue of spillage on Dawson was addressed too but I was reluctant to accept that it was all a result of poor feed chute design. The images showed that the coal fines had migrated to the edge of the belt due to vertical vibration. The coarse coal had maintained the surcharge angle expected. Photos showed the spilled coal fines piled way up higher than the return belt.

I never heard how the other issues were resolved. One was the issue of tension control on the belt. The ropes stretch under tension and the belt stretches with the rope. At a mid drive the rope goes in at high tension and comes out at much lower tension. I heard there was an issue of the belt forming a buckle at this transition but never heard if it was just a commissioning thing that was solved quickly.

I am keen to know how those systems are running now and what their operational costs are compared to Curragh's.

M

I am reporting only on hearsay but the sources are reliable in being collegues I have worked with for many years. The Lake Lindsay has had many issues of total under-performances with the final blow being that the Bundoora mine under-mined the structure which finally put a halt to the operation. There was serious issues with the conveyor in 'Blow-outs' and cable track-offs. Spillage and control of the belt running true around the radii bends I have been told needs addressing further.

Dawson has had the same issues except the under-mining episode and had a major length of structure virtually ripped off the ground supports and was close to being replaced by a conventional conveyor.

The Curragh overland has not been without its own issues as the rolls have had major replacement of over 23,000 so far which would suggest the extended distance between the idler sets could be an issue of overloading the capability of the rolls installed. I have yet to see the damaged rolls as these have been subject to the suppliers warranty control. ■

I cannot say all about Curragh, but, here are a few facts:

1. After commissioning belt ran true, loading was smooth and consistent, no replacement of idlers were noted.

2. After about one year, vibrating feeder went out of tune and somehow lost its anchor - this resulted in feeder moving horizontally back and forth with large undulations in belt flow pattern with high and low crossections to the point of overloading and spillage. This produced unacceptable idler roll loadings. Operating staff did not request the supplier come and fix the condition.

3. Eventually idler maintenance was by contract - many roll failures were then found by new maintenance service- Roll manufacturer investigated excess failures and determined (by hearsay) that more than 1/3 did not fail and should not have been replaced.

4. Idler roll supplier changed ownership during replacement period - initial roll supply was checked at < 0.6 mm TIR run-out specification. New rolls measured run-out exceeding 3 mm in many cases of replacement rolls. High imbalance was also measured in new rollers.

5. There are conveyors running 13% faster than Curragh that have similar idler loading with smaller roll diameters and similar bearings. They do not suffer these excessive failures. ■

Hi Larry,

There was no disparaging on the conveyor design, just that the rolls were failing and to my knowledge as of a week ago, there were still many failures continuing. As I mentioned, the roll manufacturer was keeping info under wraps. A couple of years ago, a particular roll manufacturer here in Oz changed to Rumanian bearings to save a few cents per bearing with the same bearing code, 6305 C3 2RS and when the roll losses were evaluated, I identified the bearing supplied had one less ball rotating element in the set, ie: 7 balls instead of 8 balls of the same diameter ball. The client then went back to the roll manufacturer with the information and replacement rolls were supplied under warranty with the correct 6305 bearing. It is easy for a company to be caught out this way.

Bye the bye. I invite all to the launch of my new 'OneFits Roll' in the Tamec Services P/L Stand 5042 @ QME(Queensland Mining Exposition) in Mackay from 27th to 29th July 2010. ■

Comments have been made about the secrecy of the cable-belt technology. I agree, there is little scientific disclosure by the cable-belt experts but it may be that there is not much to say.

The system was founded on unfulfilled objectives:

1. By separating the the tension from the carrying function the belt could be made ordinary and cheaper.

The actual result is a belt that, though it has low tensile requirements, must have significant cross-reinforcent merely to support the bulk load, and must have four continuous grooves bonded onto the covers. The belt is very unique and it isn't cheap.

2. By separating the tension from the carrying function, the tension funcion could be handled by regular, bare, steel cables that cost much less.

Indeed the cables would cost less but to hedge their bets, additionally the safety factors against break were substantially lowered when compared to that of a steel cord belt. The early installations used steel rimmed pulleys (sheaves) along the belt line to support the cables. This resulted in premature wear and flattening of the cables' outer wires, further reducing safety factor with operating time. Short splice life at the cables has always been a problem.

The cable wear problem was solved by another problem. The carrying pulleys were lagged with a polyethylene lagging. This greatly extended the cable life but the polyethylene lagging had a wear life of only several hundred hours of operation. This was further finessed to make the poly-rims removable and replaceable onto pulleys having a split grove rim. This solution to cable wear has lead to permanent shops, at the cable belt installations, whose sole purpuse is to produce and replace poly rims just as fast as they wear out. Cable splice life still remained poor.

3. Bulk material on the belt is subject to little agitation in transport. This allows for a larger material cross-section as the side slopes of the material will be at or nearly at the angle of repose rather than a lower surcharge angle.

This has not been borne out. Thank goodness for the elevated groove molds which act as barriers on either side to the toe of the material other wise spillage problems would be much worse.

4. Because the material load is not agitated, belt line resistance is less as is the power requirement.

Indeed belt line resistance is reduced but that is entirely due to the use of a large diameter pulleys to carry the hard surface of the cables.

I have heard of significant developments over the years, including epoxy sheathing of the cables including the possibility of kevlar cables. I am not aware that thes developments have been realized. Mabe some one can comment further on new developments. ■

Laing O'Rourke were invited to return to Curragh and retune the 20 km OLC near the end of 2011. They fixed to vibrating feeder oscullation. Now the ore surge is gone. ■

Originally Posted by keefysher

As is the way of internet forums, it easy to post disparaging comments about another, without actually having knowledge and experience of what really took place.

The unfulfilled objectives summary is accurate. The objectives come right out of the Cable Belt brochures, the analysis as stated is mine.

I thank you for the update with regard to the unrealized progress with aramid fiber ropes. Indeed, Kevlar reinforcement for conveyor belts was all the rage in the late 1980's to early 1990's. It turned out to be a bust there as well with sudden failures experience after a time in operation. Today we hardly see kevlar reinforced belts.

You mentioned why the aramid ropes (in epoxy sheathing) did not work out. Can you tell us what is new and improved in the Cable Belt system.

Joe Dos Santos ■

Since my posts on the Cable Belt system, considered a bit harsh by some, I have received some enlightening comments for which I am thankful. Coincidentally, last week we at DSI had a visit from specialists of TEIJIN High Performance Fibers. They specialize in the aramid high strength fibers. They are very interested in the application of their high strength fibers to belt conveyors, claiming great advantages including reduced weight for power savings and special cover compounds that greatly reduce rolling resistance, for reduced drive requirements and additional power savings. The Cable Belt subject came up and they were very interested. They claimed many variations to the spinning and weaving, etc, of their product and the felt confident that they could solve some of the problems that I cited and could significantly improve the cable Belt system.

Joe Dos Santos ■

Originally Posted by keefysher

Kevlar / Twaron (DuPont / Akzo product names) were evaluated for use on Cable Belt systems. In fact CB set up a factory to drive the development. Primarily to reduce system dead weight, reduce frictional losses and enable installed electrical power to be used more efficiently for hauling mineral. This work was in the late 1980's / early 1990's. The result was failure of Kevlar / Twaron under dynamic loading causing intertersal abrasion. This research is well known to anyone in the field of cable / wire rope / Kevlar/Twaron; certainly not secret. In static load applications, Kevlar / Twaron has proven to perform well. This development work continued into arenas of short fibre reinforcement of polymeric materials and concrete amongst others.

The resultant product was the composite drive cable 'Triton', that has since evolved to 'Zebra', 'Bristar' and 'Brifen' under the Bridon banner. These products are all composites of traditional high tensile steel wire ropes with encapsulation of core / strands in high performance polyester (Hytrel), and the fluted core. The manufacturing process involved was also transferred to fibre optic cable manufacture as used by BICC, Pirelli et al.

----

There is an interesting paper produced by Bechtel last year http://www.bechtel.com/assets/files/...ce%20Final.pdf that is worth reading. Which mining house is currently evaluating CB, I wonder.

As I remarked elsewhere on this paper:

Bridon's recent declared investment in the Neptune facility can only be advantageous to Metso to reinvigorate the MRC Cable Belt utilisation and deliver new installations.

The ability to reduce splices in the Cable Belt, that longer cable lengths delivers can only reduce whole life operating costs.

Interestingly, Worsley are currently upgrading the 52Km Overland conveyor system (2 x Cable Belt) again, the third time, under the ‘Efficiency & Growth’ programme. Lang O'Rourke are doing the feeder conveyor to the CB in conjunction with another contributor on this topic. Yet again, the project is behind schedule and over budget. One could begin to question the Australian project model as this is a common occurrence across the country.

Worsley is, in their own words, '"one of the largest, lowest cost and most efficient alumina refineries in the world'. The 2 CB's are the arterial life line for mineral feedstock. The contribution to the efficiency is not by accident!!

-----

As is the way of internet forums, it easy to post disparaging comments about another, without actually having knowledge and experience of what really took place.

Gentlemen:

Here are some facts:

1. Worsley Spillage - see attached 2 images along Cable Belt showing spillage does or did occur. Front end loaders frequently needed to do clean-up.

2. Longest Single Flight Trough Belt ............. 27 km long awarded to ELB in collaboration with Conveyor Dynamics, Inc. (CDI) for a project in South Africa. I believe they are about to publish the details.

3. Bechtel notes: Smallest Steel Cord horizontal curve must be less that the ESSROC 4 km OLC, in Pennsylvania, USA, which operating with many 400 m radii, 1100 mm wide, ST-1100 N/mm by memory. driven by head and mid-drives with bi-way transport of limestone and hot clinker on carry and return strands respectively.

4. Curragh notes: system is now operating at full capacity without the dreaded vibrating feeder surges.

5. Why does'nt METSO publish what they presented in the Oz forum? ■

You will find the photo attachments at the very top of my posting. Have'nt got the hang of how this works.

I would be please to answer any questions. I will not disclose the 27 km OLC details until ELB make their announcement.

Attachments

document1-1 (PDF)

document2 (PDF)

■

First, I thank the mysterious party who placed the photos in a more conspicous place. I very much appreciate the help.

Originally Posted by uchconveyor

The core technology gap of the belt conveyor are the following two points:

(1) high-power belt conveyor technology key are dynamic design and monitoring, it is restricting the development of the core technology of the large belt conveyor.

(2) belt conveyor dynamic analysis and monitoring techniques over long distances;

Notice of the use of belt conveyor:

1, belt conveyor allows the transport of the material density bellow 2.5t/m2.

2, belt conveyor length can be manufactured according to the needs of users

3, the throughput is in material density 1.0t/m3-1.6t/m3, belt conveyor inclination ≤ 18 °, the material accumulation obtained under the conditions of 30 ° angle.

Second, your points 1&2: Reveals you are not informed of the Dynamic Analysis publications dating back to the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's. Conveyor Dynamics, Inc. (CDI) as the name implies has been practicing dynamic analysis principles since 1980. Published our first paper at the SME conference in Hawaii, i believe 1981 or 1982, again in 1984, and many more. Dr. Harrison, Dr. Funke, Dr. lodewijks, and many researchers in our field have contributed on dynamic analysis techniques in doctoral thesis, field studies, and fact findings of conveyor failures. I suggest you read the copious amount of literature.

High tonnage to 40,000 t/h, high speeds beyond 10 m/s, high strength to ST-8000 N/mm (ST-10,000 N/mm tested for dynamic endurance by a number of manufacturers), long lengths beyond 20 km for conventional trough and 30 km for Cable Belt exist. Greater records may exists than my current knowledge with the hope others will help with these statistics.

There are many monitoring techniques in use on overland and high incline & decline conveyors including belt tensions, drive and brake forcing funcitons, take-up force and displacement, velocity monitoring that shows the propogation rate of strain or shock waves and that validate the tension waves,...... These measurements are also trended for migration of norms to abnorms.

You might be better understood if you posed a question than taking a lecture position on the points your highligth. If you ask, you may find that there is a substantial amount of common knowledge or a large void yet to be explored. Further, if you wish to share insight on a project or projects your find of interest, these are highly welcome. ■

Larry

This guy is just marketing his products with a simple cut & paste from somewhere and adding links to certain words that will take you to his site. I have been editing out his links on many of his posts in the last couple of weeks. If he would like to advertise here I am sure Reinhard would be more than happy to help him out. But until then I do not like those marketing antics (I find them a very sneaky way of doing business) and they will be deleted every time I see them. I also edited his links from your quote of his post as well. He also registered as conveyor01 doing the same thing.

Have a good day Larry.

Gary ■

Thank you Gary,

I have also removed quite a few of these posts before they appeared. This morning I deleted 21 posts, same make as you describe, where the "author" obviously copies a book or articles, because all sounds good, though not relevant to any question or comment, always with hidden links to his company.

Advertising? Why spend a dime when you can get it for free.

Keep up the good work,

Reinhard ■

Larry Nordell,

I post here regarding a comment on one of your posts, a comment by Bechtel on minimum radii of horizontal curves as they may apply to the Essroc OL conveyor in Pennsylvania. Although I am not sure what is being said I believe that the implication is that the 400m radii are too small based on horizontal radius of curvature constraints for the elastic modulus of a steel cord belt of that strength. This is not the case. Are you and Bechtel aware that the specified steel cord belting at Essroc is SFBT M-Class which has an elastic modulus of only a fraction that of standard steel cord belting, specifically 150,000 PIW? This conforms well to the horizontal radius of curvature constraints.

Joe Dos Santos ■

I would be really interested to know if current CB users are still having problems with the polyrim components or the solid plastic rollers on the "Line Creek" style system.

Back in the day we supplied a large number of upgraded pulleys to Longannet, Gascogne Wood, Anglesey Aluminium, and a few overseas locations. We visited Line Creek on a couple of occasions but due to ongoing litigation the mine owner did not want to install our product.

These systems are quite old technology but there have been a number of material advancements made in recent years which may help address some issue with some current installations.

Look forward to hearing any thoughts.

Stuart Dalrymple ■